hornplayer.net Information archive

I will state my conclusion first. For most horn players, don't use acid rinses at all, but use a solution of mild dish detergent, such as Palmolive. If you wouldn't wash your car with it, then don't put it in your horn. If your horn needs more than this, it may need treatment by a repair specialist.

There are several types of deposits which may need to be cleaned from within a horn. There may be a thin film of oil inside the horn, but I have been informed that this is not detrimental but even beneficial. The oil would inhibit oxidation of the brass and reaction to other chemicals that might find there way inside the horn.

Organic gunk in the horn comes mainly from playing horn after eating or even drinking beverages. I have seen a healthy mold (mould in Great Britain) growth develop on a cup of coffee left sitting around for several days. If the mold will grow in a coffee cup, it will grow in your horn and valves. I try to never play after eating without brushing my teeth first. But to rinse this out, just use mild dish detergent. I now use a plastic turkey baster, and I just rinse out the leadpipe by inserting the baster after removing the first crook. This keeps it from rinsing off the thin oil coat I try to maintain on my valves. (I have my own baster for the horn, and my wife uses a different baster for real turkeys. I say this in case Cabbage gets ahold of my comment).

Another type of gunk inside a horn consists of "scale" and inorganic deposits on the inside of the horn and valves. This would appear as a hard thin crust, green, blue, or white in color. This is not easily removed by detergents and would require an acid rinse or special cleaner for removal.

Vinegar is a type of acid rinse. Vinegar purchased in a grocery store is a complex substance, usually derived commercially from apple juice. Regular grocery store (food grade) brown vinegar contains many substances which I would NEVER put in my horn, just as I would NEVER pour apple juice in my horn. Country vinegar may even contain a whole community of organisms, such as vinegar eels, and organic sediment. Vinegar eels are microscopic nematodes or worms which are not harmful to the human body, but would definitely add to the problems inside a horn.

"White" vinegar has been bleached, usually by activated carbon. The bleaching simply removes the brown pigment which makes ordinary vinegar brown in color. If the vinegar is DISTILLED white vinegar, then it is relatively dilute and pure and cheap. Dilute white distilled vinegar probably would not harm brass or valves if used very occasionally and if completely rinsed soon afterward. Chemically, vinegar contains acetic acid, which forms soluble compounds with some of the gook which can collect inside a horn. Since it is soluble, this means that the dissolved gook can then be rinsed out with water. This is what you are trying to do. This is OK providing it is well rinsed, SOON after application. Acetic acid will cut oil better than hydrochloric acid. This has a good and a bad side. The good side is that it makes it a better rinse for organic gook than the dilute hydrochloric acid. The bad side is that it will strip the oil off the valves, leaving them more exposed to oxidation and corrosion. Acetic acid and other acids will remove a very, very fine layer of brass inside the horn permanently. This will change the thickness of the brass, but only very slightly.

Concentrated and chemically very pure acetic acid (the component of vinegar) can be obtained from photo supply stores. But WATCH OUT! One of the nastiest acid burns I ever got on my hand was from glacial (concentrated) acetic acid. It will eat right through skin. If you get past this warning, and still feel like trying it, then make sure you dilute the concentrated acid in a glass or ceramic container with plenty of ventilation. If you buy it as 38% concentrated acid, then dilute it using one part acetic acid to nine parts of pure water. You will end up with a solution roughly as dilute as grocery vinegar but very pure. Try it on a piece of scrap brass or copper before putting it on a horn. Then after rinsing the inside of the horn, flush it thorougly with water.

Hydrochloric acid is considered a strong acid, even if dilute. This is the acid found in the normal human stomach in dilute form. The stomach uses it to predigest meat, etc. The pure concentrated acid may be purchased at many hardware stores for the purpose cleaning bricks! But here again BE VERY CAREFUL. If the concentrated acid can clean bricks, what would it do to the inside of a horn? If you wish to dissolve your horn and start over, this might be the place to start. But don't send me the bill. One of the contaminants which may form inside a horn is like boiler scale, much like that inside a hot water heater or car radiator but in smaller amounts. I once had my car radiator cleaned professionally. They dipped it in concentrated hydrochloric acid. My radiator was as shiny as a new horn after the dip. However, I didn't take my horn into that shop for dipping for obvious reasons. Also, the mechanic was getting to the point that he had trouble breathing normally after having inhaled hydrochloric acid fumes for a number of years (warning!). For these reasons, vinegar or acetic acid is preferable to even hydrochloric acid if you must use acid.

"Shake on the distinctive flavour of Sarson's malt vinegars for that delicious extra tangy taste."

"Sarson's will clean your horn".

Kids, don't do it, not yet! Try it on someone else's instrument first, try it on the one you borrowed from school, but don't do it on your own until someone who wasn't off school on the day they did science tells us that it's okay.

It may well be the best thing to use, but I would rather wait for a few second opinions before trying it - I've yet to be knocked out by the smell of vinegar in any of the repair houses I've been into - that makes me wary!

If anyone does know what to use, please be quick and tell us - I have what I call my "camping horn" upstairs - it's a piece of old tin which is worth considerably less than the box which holds it - maybe some kind of acid treatment on the valves would help improve it (mind you, a five-pound hammer could probably improve it too)

I have used vinegar (or preferably dilute acetic acid, which is the active component in vinegar in this respect) to clean valves after removing them from the instrument. But after this treatment I rinse them VERY well with water, pour over about 1 ounce of bicarbonate to neutralize any remaining acid, and then rinse them VERY well with water again before putting them back.

I would certainly not recommend cleaning the inside of the horn with vinegar. You have to be very sure that you can wash out ALL the acid residues, otherwise you're heading for certain trouble. Particularly if you do it with the valves in place.

As a matter of fact, vinegar is used in some big shops. OSHA is cracking down on the use of nasty acids, and shops have to pay huge fees to get toxic waste removed. I'll have to check, but I think it's 5 parts white vinegar, 10 parts water, and one part Ivory liquid. Yes, it smells like a pickle factory, but it's biodegradeable. The problem is, it takes so long for instruments to soak. I know I like to get my horns in and out and start fixing, and get out of the way of other techs who need to clean. That's why we prefer the nasty acid, although we will all die of poisoning in 20 years.

Is it also possible that weak acid for long time is not chemically equivalent to strong acid for short time? Valve grunge dissolves very fast in strong acid, but the valve metal takes much longer. Is it possible that overnight in vinegar removes more metal than 15 seconds in 50% HCl? Chemists? An opinion, please.

I have been searching the internet to find a good acid solution to clean my brass instruments and I found your site. I found the archive article "Using Vinegar to Clean..." informative, but the information that is offered exposes your readers to a SERIOUS RISK! Please read:

Vinegar is acetic acid, usually no more than 10%. It is fairly weak, and therefore, fairly safe as is. However, I can not stress enough that care must be taken when diluting acid, especially the concentrated hydrocholoric- and glacial acetic acids due to their concentration. Besides the obvious, it is EXTREMELY important to ADD ACID TO WATER and not the reverse!!!!!!!!!!!! When water and acid are introduced, an "exothermic" reaction occurs meaning "heat is released." If water is added to acid, the heat cannot dissipate and an explosion can occur. However, when acid is added to water, the heat dissipates and it is safe. Please stress this point for anyone considering acid cleaning their horn.

Also, an acid solution should be neutralized before it can be considered "biodegradable", otherwise, it is just "pouring acid." Neutralize the acid solution with baking soda. Sprinkle it in slowly until it stops fizzing. Baking soda is an alkaline (a base) and when it is mixed with a water based acid solution, it forms a type of salt water. THIS is safe to pour out, provided you aren't a plant.

Another thing to consider with acid cleaning your horn: hydrochloric acid based solutions will form black deposits on silver horns. Acid solutions will soften and will (over a period of time) remove the lacquer. Short exposure (minutes, not hours) should have negligible effect.

As I mentioned first, I am going to acid clean my horns with (50/50) diluted white vinegar. But I'm going to do it safely, with safety glasses, gloves, adding the acid to the (demineralized) water, rinsing with (DM) water, and neutralizing the solution when complete. I have no doubt it will work great and I'll live to see another day. Please pass the crux of my message on to your readers...

Thanks,
Bill